How does "catch-up" work in ProNews?

[Alex Taylor]

This is basically a question for Trevor...

How does the "catch-up" function work in ProNews, exactly?

I habitually do a catch-up (c) after reading through the messages in a
group.

I've always assumed that it means "mark as read all messages up to the
latest downloaded headers". In other words, all messages currently shown in
the message list are marked as read (as are any older messages which aren't
shown). That seems to be the standard behaviour for most newsreaders.

However, it's suddenly occurred to me that certain anomalies* might be
explained if what catch-up _actually_ does is mark ALL messages in the group
as read _up to the latest on the server_ (even those that haven't yet been
refreshed into the header list). In other words, even newer messages (that
I don't know about yet) get marked read, and won't ever appear in the
message list.

So... which is it?



* Namely, messages which I post myself almost never show up in ProNews. I
figure that if I post the message while reading the group, then do a
catch-up, it might get marked as read and thus never downloaded by
ProNews later.

[Trevor Hemsley]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:52:08 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
However, it's suddenly occurred to me that certain anomalies* might be
explained if what catch-up _actually_ does is mark ALL messages in the group
as read _up to the latest on the server_ (even those that haven't yet been
refreshed into the header list). In other words, even newer messages (that
I don't know about yet) get marked read, and won't ever appear in the
message list.
So... which is it?

I think it is exactly this. The code seems to retrieve the latest group info
from the server (number of articles, low msg #, high msg #) then set the group
information to show that all of those have been retrieved and then goes off and
marks everything as not new and as read. I could be wrong about the
functionality as this is a) not an area of the code that I have ever looked at
and b) never used myself.

[Dave Saville]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:58:45 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:52:08 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
However, it's suddenly occurred to me that certain anomalies* might be
explained if what catch-up _actually_ does is mark ALL messages in the group
as read _up to the latest on the server_ (even those that haven't yet been
refreshed into the header list). In other words, even newer messages (that
I don't know about yet) get marked read, and won't ever appear in the
message list.
So... which is it?

I think it is exactly this. The code seems to retrieve the latest group info
from the server (number of articles, low msg #, high msg #) then set the group
information to show that all of those have been retrieved and then goes off and
marks everything as not new and as read. I could be wrong about the
functionality as this is a) not an area of the code that I have ever looked at
and b) never used myself.

That does seem to be rather a crap design if true. :-)

[Alex Taylor]

Post by Dave Saville

Post by Trevor Hemsley

...if what catch-up _actually_ does is mark ALL messages in the group
as read _up to the latest on the server_ (even those that haven't yet
been refreshed into the header list). In other words, even newer
messages (that I don't know about yet) get marked read, and won't ever
appear in the message list.

I think it is exactly this. The code seems to retrieve the latest group
info from the server (number of articles, low msg #, high msg #) then set
the group information to show that all of those have been retrieved and
then goes off and marks everything as not new and as read. I could be
wrong about the functionality as this is a) not an area of the code that
I have ever looked at and b) never used myself.

That does seem to be rather a crap design if true. :-)

Well, it certainly would seem to be a rather _odd_ design... It would mean
that any messages which arrive on the server during the gap between me
downloading the headers and doing the catch-up (basically, during the time
I spend reading the group) is going to disappear into the void, at least
from my perspective.

Mind you, it would explain the nagging impression I've had for a while that
I just miss seeing postings every now and then...

[a***@dccnet.com]

When a message arrives during a catch-up, those messages are higer message
number than the High# in catch-up

Example:
comp.os.os2.beta ... 16:09:56 (40426/00000)
Catch-up 200 articles
comp.os.os2.beta ... 16:09:56 (40226/40426)
5 new messages arrive
comp.os.os2.beta ... 16:09:56 (40426/40431)
Collected on NEXT news collection

Regards Al

Post by Alex Taylor
Well, it certainly would seem to be a rather _odd_ design... It would
mean that any messages which arrive on the server during the gap between
me downloading the headers and doing the catch-up (basically, during the
time I spend reading the group) is going to disappear into the void, at
least from my perspective.

--
*****************************************
* Alan Townsend Sechelt, BC Canada
*
* E-Mail: ***@dccnet.com
* Home Page:
* Tel: [phone]
*
* Mr2 Ice: Reg #582
*****************************************

[Trevor Hemsley]

Post by a***@dccnet.com
When a message arrives during a catch-up, those messages are higer message
number than the High# in catch-up

No, it goes to the server and updates the numbers and _then_ catches up.

If you want to do what you said the you use Alt-R from control panel or
Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group.

[Dave Saville]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:28:34 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley

Post by a***@dccnet.com
When a message arrives during a catch-up, those messages are higer message
number than the High# in catch-up

No, it goes to the server and updates the numbers and _then_ catches up.
If you want to do what you said the you use Alt-R from control panel or
Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group.

Then may I suggest that that option be added to the group drop down
menu? Either in addition or instead of "Catchup C". Which, as we have
seen, gives entirely the wrong impression.

[Trevor Hemsley]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:52:25 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Dave Saville"

Post by Dave Saville
Then may I suggest that that option be added to the group drop down
menu? Either in addition or instead of "Catchup C". Which, as we have
seen, gives entirely the wrong impression.

It's already on the group popup menu or from Article -> Mark as Read -> All
(Ctrl-Alt-R)

[Dave Saville]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:21:23 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:52:25 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Dave Saville"

Post by Dave Saville
Then may I suggest that that option be added to the group drop down
menu? Either in addition or instead of "Catchup C". Which, as we have
seen, gives entirely the wrong impression.

It's already on the group popup menu or from Article -> Mark as Read -> All
(Ctrl-Alt-R)

Somehow, my brain at least, does not equate Mark as Read -> All as the
same as Catchup. Especially as Catchup has higher prominance in the
menu hirarachy

[Christian Hennecke]

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:00:17 UTC, "Dave Saville"

Post by Dave Saville

Post by Trevor Hemsley

Post by Alex Taylor
However, it's suddenly occurred to me that certain anomalies* might be
explained if what catch-up _actually_ does is mark ALL messages in the group
as read _up to the latest on the server_ (even those that haven't yet been
refreshed into the header list). In other words, even newer messages (that
I don't know about yet) get marked read, and won't ever appear in the
message list.
So... which is it?

I think it is exactly this. The code seems to retrieve the latest group info
from the server (number of articles, low msg #, high msg #) then set the group
information to show that all of those have been retrieved and then goes off and
marks everything as not new and as read. I could be wrong about the
functionality as this is a) not an area of the code that I have ever looked at
and b) never used myself.

That does seem to be rather a crap design if true. :-)

Crap or not, that is the way that catching up always has worked with
NNTP.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:33:46 +0000 (UTC), Christian Hennecke

Post by Christian Hennecke

Post by Dave Saville

Post by Trevor Hemsley
I think it is exactly this. The code seems to retrieve the latest group info
from the server (number of articles, low msg #, high msg #) then set the group
information to show that all of those have been retrieved and then goes off and
marks everything as not new and as read. I could be wrong about the
functionality as this is a) not an area of the code that I have ever looked at
and b) never used myself.

That does seem to be rather a crap design if true. :-)

Crap or not, that is the way that catching up always has worked with
NNTP.

It's nothing to do with NNTP. It is entirely a client side issue.
The client ought to mark as read as high as whatever the highest numbered
article was the last time it contacted the server. It should NOT contact
the server again and use whatever the number may be now.

[Trevor Hemsley]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:52:08 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
I've always assumed that it means "mark as read all messages up to the
latest downloaded headers". In other words, all messages currently shown in
the message list are marked as read (as are any older messages which aren't
shown). That seems to be the standard behaviour for most newsreaders.

If you want this behaviour then you just need to use Alt-R from the control
panel or Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group itself.

[Alex Taylor]

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:25:35 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley

Post by Alex Taylor
I've always assumed that it means "mark as read all messages up to the
latest downloaded headers". In other words, all messages currently shown
in the message list are marked as read (as are any older messages which
aren't shown). That seems to be the standard behaviour for most
newsreaders.

If you want this behaviour then you just need to use Alt-R from the
control panel or Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group itself.

Retraining my fingers from using 'c' is easier said than done... -_-
I don't suppose there's any way for the user to remap it...?

[Dave Saville]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:51:01 UTC, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:25:35 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley

Post by Alex Taylor
I've always assumed that it means "mark as read all messages up to the
latest downloaded headers". In other words, all messages currently shown
in the message list are marked as read (as are any older messages which
aren't shown). That seems to be the standard behaviour for most
newsreaders.

If you want this behaviour then you just need to use Alt-R from the
control panel or Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group itself.

Retraining my fingers from using 'c' is easier said than done... -_-
I don't suppose there's any way for the user to remap it...?

You could create a "Mark all as read" icon on the toolbar.

[Alex Taylor]

Post by Dave Saville

Post by Alex Taylor

Post by Trevor Hemsley
If you want this behaviour then you just need to use Alt-R from the
control panel or Ctrl-Alt-R from within the group itself.

Retraining my fingers from using 'c' is easier said than done... -_-
I don't suppose there's any way for the user to remap it...?

You could create a "Mark all as read" icon on the toolbar.

I already have, but it doesn't fix the aforementioned problem...

[Allan]

Post by Alex Taylor

Post by Dave Saville
You could create a "Mark all as read" icon on the toolbar.

I already have, but it doesn't fix the aforementioned problem...

The problem seem to be, that you are using Pronews the wrong way.
From help: (catchup)
"This menu item gets the highest article number from the server
and sets this as the last message you have retrieved.
Getting new article headers will only retrieve headers higher than this number.
All articles in the group will be marked as read. "

It seems the only thing that needs fixing is you ;-)

[Alex Taylor]

Post by Allan

Post by Alex Taylor

Post by Dave Saville
You could create a "Mark all as read" icon on the toolbar.

I already have, but it doesn't fix the aforementioned problem...

The problem seem to be, that you are using Pronews the wrong way.
From help: (catchup)
"This menu item gets the highest article number from the server
and sets this as the last message you have retrieved.
Getting new article headers will only retrieve headers higher than this number.
All articles in the group will be marked as read. "
It seems the only thing that needs fixing is you ;-)

Well, not exactly.

There are two issues there. First of all, we've established that the above
is what the ProNews catchup facility is designed to do. My original point
was that it shouldn't be. (Seriously, what could this behaviour be useful
for?)

However, ProNews does provide a function, "mark all as read", which is the
same as what other newsreaders I've used call "catchup". So it becomes an
issue of terminology at this point. Fair enough, now we know.

But...

My current point is that, if I'm going to change to "mark as read" instead
of "catchup", there are barriers to doing so. The main one being that
I can catchup (C) with a single key stroke. However, I can't mark all as
read (Ctrl-Alt-R) with a single key stroke, or even with one hand. Hence
my latest question, as to whether there's any way for me to remap the
keyboard shortcuts.

[Trevor Hemsley]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:29:01 UTC in comp.os.os2.mail-news, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
Hence
my latest question, as to whether there's any way for me to remap the
keyboard shortcuts.

Not at the moment. It is something that's on my vague todo list as I'd also like
to have the ability to assign keystrokes to buttons on the toolbar - but I
really wouldn't hold your breath waiting as my time is very limited and I rarely
get any time to concentrate on one thing for long enough any more (3 y.o.'s are
amazing distraction engines).

[Alex Taylor]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:21:52 UTC, "Trevor Hemsley"

Post by Trevor Hemsley

Post by Alex Taylor
Hence
my latest question, as to whether there's any way for me to remap the
keyboard shortcuts.

Not at the moment. It is something that's on my vague todo list as I'd
also like to have the ability to assign keystrokes to buttons on the
toolbar - but I really wouldn't hold your breath waiting as my time is

OK, thanks.

Actually, are the shortcuts only defined in the acceltable? I guess I
could cheat a bit with a resource editor, if I get desperate... :)

Post by Trevor Hemsley
very limited and I rarely get any time to concentrate on one thing for
long enough any more (3 y.o.'s are amazing distraction engines).

Ah, yes. Doing preschool class for two hours is enough to take me out
of commission for the whole day, I don't know how their parents and
teachers manage to handle them full-time...

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:29:01 UTC, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
There are two issues there. First of all, we've established that the above
is what the ProNews catchup facility is designed to do. My original point
was that it shouldn't be. (Seriously, what could this behaviour be useful
for?)

If I've been snowed under with work, or on holiday, and I really don't
have the time or inclination to download or read a huge backlog...then
that's when I use it.

I think that some newsreaders call that 'catchup', and others call 'mark
all as read' 'catchup'...!

[Will Honea]

Post by Bob Eager
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:29:01 UTC, "Alex Taylor"

Post by Alex Taylor
There are two issues there. First of all, we've established that the above
is what the ProNews catchup facility is designed to do. My original point
was that it shouldn't be. (Seriously, what could this behaviour be
useful for?)

If I've been snowed under with work, or on holiday, and I really don't
have the time or inclination to download or read a huge backlog...then
that's when I use it.
I think that some newsreaders call that 'catchup', and others call 'mark
all as read' 'catchup'...!

I use it most often when I grab the laptop for a trip after a long layoff.
The routine is usually to charge it up and "catchup" the news reader (as it
now exists) after reading anything current on the desktop. I do the
reverse when I get back just to clear the redundancies.

[Alex Taylor]

Post by Bob Eager
If I've been snowed under with work, or on holiday, and I really don't
have the time or inclination to download or read a huge backlog...then
that's when I use it.

OK, I guess that's true...

Post by Bob Eager
I think that some newsreaders call that 'catchup', and others call 'mark
all as read' 'catchup'...!

Yeah, hence the confusion. Clearly, the other ones I'm used to use the
latter... (-_-)